Big Groups Face Limits on Public Lands
Planning a Troop hike on public land? We all need to heed the warnings from a recent article in the New York Times;
by Michelle York
NOV 20, 2005
LAKE PLACID, N.Y. - Over the Columbus Day weekend last month, a 16-member group of Boy Scouts and chaperons from Rochester began an overnight hiking trip in the Adirondack High Peaks wilderness area. But for their efforts, the group earned something less illustrious than a merit badge.
Forest rangers evicted them from the park for violating rules that restrict the size of hiking groups after spotting their tents clustered together and the group hiking en masse. Then, state environmental officers gave tickets to the two Scout leaders, who had been warned of the rules beforehand……
Get the full text of this article at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/20/nyregion/20hikers.html,http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/20/nyregion/20hikers.html (cut & paste this link to your browser).
Unfortunately, the New York Times article is not an isolated case. Recent postings from the CANOE discussion list provide a feel for how widespread the issue may be -
From postings on NOV 11th, 2005 -
I was having lunch with several professional lobbyist who work
on/for/against Federal Land Management Agencies (BLM, NPS, USFS, F&W). The
subject of the BSA came up and they all started complaining loudly. In fact
I have known most of them for years and this was the loudest any of them had
ever been. They all proceeded to tell me horror stories that an agency had
been involved with a BSA unit. They all agreed the federal land management
agencies at the land manage level hated the BSA. Most stated for some land
units the BSA was the number 1 problem they dealt with. I of course
attempted to defend and was shot down hard and fast. (And guys, I don't
give up to easily, too many trials but I lost fast, in fact I lost
credibility with several of the people for defending the BSA.)
The National Park Service has a website called the morning report. The
morning report publishes the news of the NPS each morning as well as makes
announcements. The NPS morning report today had this.
Joshua Tree National Park (CA)
PVC Potato Cannons Seized from Scout Troop
On the morning of Saturday, October 29th, park employees received reports of
a disturbance from visitors who were camping in the group campsites at
Indian Cove Campground. Protection rangers responded. During the subsequent
investigation, the rangers confiscated seven cannons constructed from PVC
piping which were being used to shoot potatoes into the area of the
campground through the use of a gas propellant. The cannons ranged in size
from two to six feet in length and are defined as destructive devices under
the California penal code. Other miscellaneous PVC piping, which was used
for making the potato cannons, and three five-pound bags of potatoes were
also confiscated. A local California Boy Scout troop occupied the site. The
site permit holder was issued a violation notice for possession/use of
weapons. The Scoutmaster and group leaders were given multiple verbal
warnings for disorderly conduct, sanitation/refuse violations, food storage
violations, and miscellaneous traffic offenses. [Submitted by Judy
Bartzatt, Chief Ranger]
http://data2.itc.nps.gov/morningreport/,http://data2.itc.nps.gov/morningreport/
Normally if someone derides the BSA I argue but don't worry. This group has
me worried. By that I mean, these are professionals. All have testified
before congress several times. All have the ability to pick up the phone and
have any person in at any level in a land management agency answer. These
are important people. Not one of them was willing to argue on behalf of the
BSA because they knew the land managers would not be receptive. None even
had their kids in a scout program because of their feelings about the BSA
because of Federal land managers. Not because of the religious or other
issues, only because in their experience the BSA is a very destructive and
out of control organization.
This conversation occurred 3 weeks ago and I have been mulling it since. The
NPS morning report brought this back to the forefront and after 3 weeks, I
have no great answers.
So I turn to you.
We need to do a better job. I understand how hard it is. (My father was a DE
while I was growing up and I was one also for a couple of years.) I
understand how hard it is to recruit volunteers and then get them trained.
At the same time, the federal land management agencies are restricting
access to federal lands. You probably have not seen it, but that is why the
group of lobbyist and I get together every couple of weeks (One of the
lobbyist and I have been working on this for ten years). In the past summer
USFS denied access to college programs in Oregon, North and South Carolina.
By this I mean any organized credit or non-credit group from any state
college in these areas cannot get on federal land without being issued a
ticket or being arrested. At Yellowstone and Rocky Mtn National Park if a
university van pulls up to the gate they are told to turn around and denied
access.
Believe me when I say, if the legal issues that the land managers employ to
stop university programs existed they would use them against BSA units.
So what can we do.
I've been thinking about additional LNT segments. (Every land management
agency is a signor on LNT and has someone on the LNT board of directors. It
is a big issue for them.) Another training program (what a mess.)
You guys have any ideas.
James 'Jim' H. Moss, JD, Editor
Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Review:
http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/law_review/index.html,http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/law_review/index.html
The Outdoor Recreation & Fitness Law Reviews are publications for members of
the Outdoor Recreation, Adventure Travel, Hospitality and Fitness Industry.
Instructor: Ski Area Operations, Ski Area Risk Management Course Colorado
Mountain College http://www.coloradomtn.edu/programs/sao/home.html,http://www.coloradomtn.edu/programs/sao/home.html
Adjunct Professor: The Department of Parks, Recreation, and Tourism,
University of Utah Outdoor Recreation Risk Management, Insurance and Law
http://www.health.Utah.edu/prt/,http://www.health.Utah.edu/prt/
Jim,
I had a similar experience with a ranger in Canada's Quetico Provincial
Park. Several years ago. He was listing lots of complaints about Boy
Scout groups. None as outrageous as the example you give, but negative.
I was in the company of a group of Scouts training to work as trip
leaders for Scout groups who take canoe trips in the area through the
Northern Tier High Adventure program. I am aware that the groups who
travel through that wilderness area with the leadership those Scouts
provide haul out more trash than they take in, make improvements at
campsites and leave things better than they found them everywhere they
go. Canadian rangers and U.S. Forest Service folks will admit (with
prompting) that they are aware of that and appreciate it. However,
scout groups that travel the area on their own sometimes do some of the
things that build the reputation you're writing about. There might even
be a Northern Tier group that's that bad once in a while.
I think BSA needs to do two things in this regard:
Make sure the federal land folks get the word on good stuff we do.
Find some way to penalize troops that go out and shoot off potato
cannons (Who are those guys?)
I guess it's really more imperative to prevent this kind of inanity, so
find some way to prevent it would be first, then penalize would be
third.
Make that three things BSA needs to do (nobody expects the Spanish
Inquisition).
Mark Nordstrom
So one answer would be to emulate the Northern Tier model -- keep crews
small and send along a well-trained and well-managed third-party adult to
set an example, teach and monitor. Practically, though, the only thing that
might be done is better training for adult volunteers who in turn would do a
better job of setting an example, training, and monitoring their Scouts.
Training requirements are already increasing for Youth Protection and Health
& Safety -- this could be another kind of training that is required for
anyone applying for a local tour permit.
Monitoring the activity of boys in a large boy-run troop can be a big
challenge...I know I've been surprised to learn after a trek about some
things that went on that I wasn't aware of. It's amazing how common sense
can drop when boys get together. Here's a saying I picked up from the book,
"Just between Father and Son": "If you have one boy you have a boy. If you
have two boys you have half a boy. If you have three boys you have no boy at
all."
-- Cal Gabriel
SM, Troop 476, Cupertino, CA
Bottom line? If Scout groups are going to have access to public lands for their outings, they need to be overly sensitive to local rules and to the details of Leave No Trace. It's up to us.
The CANOE discussion list covers all topics related to Scout canoeing and treking, esp to the Northern Tier base in Ely, MN. Get more information re this list at:
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This page revised January 29, 2007